Direct from the jewish Imposters
[email protected] wrote:
1.bitter rancor that has been caused by DOCTRINAL issues. [FACT: the bitter rancor was caused by putative Christians
who didn't even have the courtesy to thank Mr. Martin for his courteous response to their assinine questions]
2.I am now casting it aside because of certain unfounded statements which have been made with an absolute lack of civility
on the part of a certain "elder moderator" [FACT: nobody who took the time to study the Holy Bible well enough to
understand Two Seedline would cast it all aside just because an advocate for Two Seedline didn't say exactly the words
they want to hear‑‑they never understood the point in the first place].
3.Our supposed leaders have become stiffnecked in their beliefs of doctrine [FACT: being stiff necked is what kept
Christianity alive and growing for two thousand years, attracting 2 billion followers worldwide these days].
4.Either you are doing this to cast dispersion, or you are trying to create confusion so that most people don't realize that
you haven't really said anything [FACT: neither is correct, and this ad hominem is designed to ignore the point, which is
that he's doing this because it's the proper, Godly, Christian thing to do].
5.if unintentional it does bring your competence to question [FACT: questioning the competence of your opponent in a
debate is such a low form of ad hominem that it discredits anything else the debater has to say].
6.I used to read and promote your materials and I had respect for you. But God does work in mysterious ways, and He
showed me the lack of Christian spirit in both you and Jones. [FACT: ditto #2].
7.I see that same lack of spiritual growth and accountability in Peters, Weiland, Barley, Stephen Jones, V.S Herrell and
recently the Aryan nations leadership [FACT: ditto #2].
Richard Niemela wrote:
1.it is a convoluted impression that insists that Eve was impregnated by some alien angel and birthed, Cain, the result of that
implied physical merger... [FACT: the Holy Bible deals a lot with the genealogy of "jews", Hittites, Canaanites,
Amorites, Assyrians, Israelites, and others, and Two Seedline is the only existing explanation for the heritage of the
jews].
2.to say that they are physical progeny of our Mother Eve and some tailed demon is as childish as this letter sounds [FACT:
this person who accuses other of being "childish" resorts to the lowest form of childishness in 4 and 5 below].
3.Its stink rises up in our noses and betrays the truth [FACT: this is a pure ad hominem attack with no substance or truth
whatsoever].
4.[Two Seedliners are] CRIMINALS, WIFE BEATERS, SOME CAUGHT WITH 16 YEAR OLD GIRLS, MOST DIVORCED AND
MARRIED AN NUMBER OF TIMES, MOST DID NOT FINISH HIGHSCHOOL, AND IN GENERAL, MANY CLAIMING TO BE
PATRIOTS AND PROBABLY THE FIRST TO TURN TAIL! [FACT: it could be claimed that "One Seedliners" are guilty of
exactly the same, because this is the typical jewish ploy when the argument has run its course‑‑read: when they can't
defend their position].
5.THE ONLY THING THEY WANT TO PROMOTE IS THE IDEA THE EVE WAS INVOLVED WITH SOME ALIEN DEMON
THAT DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE BOOK. [FACT: ditto 4].
Pastor Mark Downey, kklud [email protected] wrote:
1.your Satan worship [FACT: Mr. Martin isn't "worshiping" satan‑‑he's condemning satan and his descendants, the
jews, just as Jesus Christ did].
2.justify not loving your brethren [FACT: Mr. Martin has stated repeatedly that he DOES love his "brethren",
and that he considers his "brethren" to be exclusively White Christian Israelites, just as Jesus Christ commanded of His
followers. Pastor Downey is now bearing false witness, and nothing less].
3.turning people towards the opposite of God ie your personified adversarial Satan [FACT: it's
the authors of the Holy Bible, not Mr. Martin, who raised the issue of satan, so this again is bearing falsse witness].
4.your premise of Two Seedline is not anchored in biblical reality and therefore false
doctrine [FACT: there are two competing theories. If the advocates of one theory really think that the other theory
is "false doctrine", then there's nothing to stop everyone from accusing anyone of having a "false doctrine". read: this is
an ad hominem, not a valid critique].
5.your spirit among CI brethren sucks. [FACT: a putative Christian, particularly a pastor, who would would
stoop so low as to claim that his brethren "sucks" doesn't deserve the time of day. This is an inflammatory remark which
is intended to distract our attention from the fact that he doesn't have a valid critique of the premise].
6.drop a false teaching because of a false teacher and that is what you have become. [FACT:
ditto 5].
7.smell of a persecution complex [FACT: there IS some persecution of a fellow Christian going on here, but the
only "complex" being exhibited is with the accusers who can't responsibly and reasonably refute the thesis].
8.false fear among people that if they don't believe what you do [FACT: bearing false witness. This
is not at all the objective, and Pastor Downey knows it].
9.pride which God's Word has unceasing contempt for. [FACT: Pastor Downey obviously doesn't even
recognize that this is a two way street].
10.Other people have and are turning away from you. [FACT: they're turning away much faster from those
levelling these unprovoked, anti‑Christian ad hominem attacks]
11.wild accusations beyond the scope of gentlemanly Christian conversation that someone who
disagrees with you is somehow a jew lover [FACT: those who refuse to acknowledge that jews are a race,
and not just a religion, and that this race is abundantly described in the Holy Bible, ARE "jew lovers"].
12.a false accuser, which you are actively engaged in. [FACT: bearing false witness].
13.This is not Christian behaviour [FACT: agreed‑‑none of the "Christians" who have attached Two Seedline
are exhibiting Christian behavior‑‑this is straight from the Talmud].
14.worm your false doctrine into scripture [FACT: bearing false witness].
15.A Christian is also repentant, which you forgot to mention. [FACT: This proves that Pastor
Downey isn't a Christian‑‑where is his repentance, and where is his apology to Mr. Martin for the above anti‑Christian
screed?].
After all of this slander, ad hominem attacks, and insults, they have the nerve to claim they
want "civility" in this debate.
Is this language really that of Christians‑‑or of jews?
From: Debbi
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: Holy War: AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?
Andy,
The racialist Movement has always had splits and agent provacateurs and so has the left wing. I've had my share of discussions
with pagans and antichrists, but nothing prepared me for the Rick Savages and the Willie Martins within our Movement. It has
absolutely amazed me to read the bitter rancor that has been caused by DOCTRINAL issues.
I came from a 2 Seedline foundation and I am now casting it aside because of certain unfounded statements which have been
made with an absolute lack of civility on the part of a certain "elder moderator" here at Holy Wars. My departure from the 2
Seedline issue is the fruit of his work. So while my heart was sinking from this lack of unity, I now count it as joy as I continue
to strive for Christian maturity.
As you know, I've been an activist in this Movement since the late 70's. I have not seen so much disunity since the last 10 year.
Our supposed leaders have become stiffnecked in their beliefs of doctrine and actually have stopped learning and loving.
NOBODY is above God's law, not even our leaders or elders. The Bible is explicit in that we are to love God and love one
another. All else is secondary. If we cannot understand and follow the simple commandment, LOVE ONE ANOTHER, we
cannot even begin to touch on the other subjects.
We must not let our doctrinal issues divide us. God will not send us strong leaders until we hold our current leaders
accountable. That is not happening. Most of the so‑called leaders today only have a radio and internet audiences. Where is the
eldership to hold their teachings accountable?
Regular face to face fellowship is not only inspiring, but essential to building friendships and unity. Men and women say things to
each other on the internet that they wouldn't say in person, and that is sad. Is the Internet God's blessing ... or God's curse?
Interesting question I think.
From: Willie Martin
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 1:56 AM
Subject: Re: Holy War: AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?
The Bible does not say that we must always love one
another when that other one is turning people away from our
God. You blame me for the split but I don't see you saying
anything about those that started this scrap in the first
place.
You want to blame me for your failing on the two
seedline; you state you are droping it because of some
unfounded statements but you carefully don't state those
unfounded statements. Just like so many, quick to blame but
will not or cannot state the exact thing that is bothering
you.
So blame me if you will, I am a strong man and can bear
the burden. But be truthful don't say you drop the two
seedline because of me, say why you relly dropped it and
that is because you are afraid of the opposition and that
they will attack you like they have me if they learned that
you did believe the two seedlines.
From: Andy
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:03 AM
Subject: RE: Holy War: AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?
You said it well Debbi, I too lament the lack of civility and respect due others. There is an apparent sense that people can approach
others with a rudeness that would otherwise quickly get them a bent nose from impacting someone’s fist if done in person. The dual
seedline issue has relied upon acceptance of a theory built upon secondary definitions, but its Achilles heel I believe is Genesis 4:1.
To dispute this is to deny what the Bible says and to call God a liar, for every single Bible version I have read says the same, that
Adam knew his wife, she then conceived and later bare Cain. One thing followed another in a natural progression, and nowhere does
it say that Eve was pregnant first before knowing Adam. It doesn’t say anyone or anything shared an intimacy with her first before
Adam. The words are a scarce paragraph apart from Genesis 3:15 and the definitions that dual seedline doctrinisms hold to do not
match what the words plainly say, though they were written by the same hand. The theory of the demonic evil erection in some
Garden of Eden mini‑brothel is a Talmudic attempt to cast ridicule upon the immaculate conception and is the root of this thing, in
my opinion.
Yet for all that, the dual seedliners are our kin, this theory has an appeal and makes sense for them, and they understand the
blessed seedline issue and that is the key, not the secondary dual seedline matter. The Jews and their kind are cursed and
unblessed elsewhere, and the Bible says so plainly. Thanks for speaking out, Vaya Con Dios, Andy
From: Danny Murphy
Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 10:46 PM
Subject: RE: Holy War: AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?
I agree with you Andy 100%! I believe C.I. people are under attack because we expose those who Jesus said are the
children of the Devil. The way it is, you can talk about the politics of this conspiracy, talk about how our White Christian
nations, to be more P.C. (just Christian nations) are being flooded by the 3rd world peoples. Talk about that, all day long if you
like, BUT don't name the Jews who are behind it all! Don't expose the fact that they are the children of the devil, like JESUS
SAID they are! Isn't it funny, once the Jewish question is brought TO LIGHT, you get verbally attacked, called names, ect. I
am not kidding you when I say this Andy, but you would think this discussion was with Jews themselves! Calling anyone who
believed in the Two Seed Line truth, people who are , evil, corrupted, unknowledgeable, and being led by their nose! I was
told, you have to be intelligent in order to understand the One Seed Line message. You know what I say? "The truth does not
require a degree, only to search for it" I do question this One Seed Line message. I have seen C.I. churches torn apart
because of greed, and power. And I question those who are making a lot of money from the C.I. message. Maybe these
people were told, that if they drop the Jew thing, they could be very prosperous! They say everybody has a price? Making
money is one thing, selling out their God is another.
I am proud to stand with those of the Two Seed Line truth. Those who, I know, will not or ever, bend the knee to Satan, or
to his children, who we call Jews today. It has been stated to me that my self pride is preventing me from understanding the
One Seed Line message. No it is not self pride, I know I don't have all the answers, I do know that But what is important is
this! Knowing where to get the true answers, that is most important.True answers that fit, make sense, and do not confuse. The
Bible requires lots of study and research, in order to unlock these mysteries, thats for sure!
May Yahweh shine the light of truth, understanding, wisdom and honor, on you all.
Keep the faith, sharpen your swords, on both sides. ‑ Thank's for your time. ‑ Danny Murphy
From: Richard Niemela
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: Holy War: AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?
Andy>> I get the impression that Danny thinks that calling Jews children of satan is the gist of our Christian Identity faith..that if we
do not follow and promote that theme we fail entry into the Kingdom...It is not a two seed line issue as such, it is a convoluted
impression that insists that Eve was impregnated by some alien angel and birthed, Cain, the result of that implied physical merger...
That thought and a few shekels might get a "goi" into the narthex of some Synagogue, but it will not get a Christian into the
Kingdom..It will void entry, as it violates the Word in that it constrains facts...as they appear in the Bible, as so much of its conjured
basis from other sources must be re‑worded, restructured, and changed in meaning to accommodate the idea!
Jews are the live and active enemies of Christianity, especially those promoting the Talmud,the basis for this implied relationship
between Eve and some hoofed and long tailed devil. Jews, even the Messianic ones claim to be Jews before being "Christian" and
never condemn their so‑called "kinsmen' for their damage to Christianity.. So, Jews are the internal enemy, and the Bible so
states...Read Jeremiah 24:9‑10 for confirmation, but, to say that they are physical progeny of our Mother Eve and some tailed
demon is as childish as this letter sounds...Nothing more, nothing less...
I suggest that these promoters of the Eve/Satan union, keep this to themselves, stop promoting it to Christians and let it die the
death it deserves. Its stink rises up in our noses and betrays the truth....JRN
From: Klaliff
To: [email protected] ; [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Holy War: AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?
Mr. Martin,
Please do not add additional meaning to my comments. Either you are doing this to cast dispersion, or you are trying to create
confusion so that most people don't realize that you haven't really said anything. I guess only you know if it's intentional or not, but if
unintentional it does bring your competence to question. I specifically refer to the 2 paragraphs as follows:
"The brothers and sisters that I am to love is the
Israelites brothers and sisters. I don't love the black, I
don't love the mexicans (who are a mixed bunch) and I damn
sure don't love the jews for they are also a bastard bunch
of people who have mixed with every other race on earth.
"But I do love my brother and sister Israelite, and it
matters not to me who you love. You can love every single
race and especially the antichrists all you wish. But I will
never love the people who murdered my Savior and my King."
Nowhere in my post did I indicate that I am a universalist, AND my post was very clear that I do not love the antichrist.
You may love your Israelite brother and sister, Mr. Martin, but that love is not apparent in your one‑on‑one discussions. I don't need
you to "bow down" to me or anyone other than God. And God is going to take everything into account, including how we act towards
one another, because loving one another is a commandment that transcends our doctrinal differences.
You have not even touched on my comment about the 2 assumptions you make about non 2‑Seedliners....
1) Anyone who does not believe in the sexual connotation of Genesis 3:15 has turned away from God.
2) Anyone who does not adhere to the 2‑Seedline doctrine has a love for jews.
For the record I have Dutch, English and Irish ancestory and believe in the White Race as God's Holy people. Also, I have NEVER
been a universalist since my conversion from jewdeo Christianity. Until this past month, I've been a staunch racialist 2‑Seedliner
since the late 70's when I saw Bob Jones' comments AND yours about your fellow Israelite brothers and sisters. It's too bad. I used
to read and promote your materials and I had respect for you. But God does work in mysterious ways, and He showed me the lack
of Christian spirit in both you and Jones. I see that same lack of spiritual growth and accountability in Peters, Weiland, Barley,
Stephen Jones, V.S Herrell and recently the Aryan nations leadership. God is speaking to us very clearly in this lack of accountable
leadership. Amos 8:11 is very much in play here: "'Behold the days are coming', says the Lord God, 'when I will send a famine on
the land; not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord.'" Quite simply, the good news of the
Gospels is not being taught because of all these pet doctrines.
You don't care, but the question is ... Does GOD care?
From: kkludd
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Holy War: AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?
Willie, you have a knack for paraphrasing the Bible to dovetail with
your Satan worship, however if you want to now justify not loving
your brethren because they have a fundamental difference of
interpretation, then you are no longer a practicing Christian. II
Chronicles 19:2 sets the rule for not loving those who HATE the LORD
and I will take the same license that you do by saying that those
who hate the LORD are those who love the opposite of God. Indeed,
it is not turning people away from God, but turning people towards
the opposite of God ie your personified adversarial Satan.
What you consider to be an unfounded statement is reduntantly at the
heart of the matter, but if you need it spelled out for you again
and again and again, it is the fact that your premise of Two
Seedline is not anchored in biblical reality and therefore false
doctrine. To compound matters, your spirit among CI brethren
sucks. People usually drop a false teaching because of a false
teacher and that is what you have become.
There's also this smell of a persecution complex, fomenting a false
fear among people that if they don't believe what you do, the enemy
will think of them as less than a threat. To say that people are
afraid of the opposition is utter nonsense and seedline propaganda
when the credibility of their doctrine fails. I think it's called
pride which God's Word has unceasing contempt for. Your poor
misguided fears are directed more towards your so called Satan‑
seedline jews than Almighty God Himself. Think about it. Other
people have and are turning away from you.
Pastor Mark Downey
http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com
From: Willie Martin
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 4:05 PM
Subject: Re: Holy War: AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?
Well for one thing I don't worship Satan that is the
jews who do that. You and Richard are just alike in that you
accuse others of everything under the sun, because they will
not bow down and worship at your feet and believe the one
seedline crap; which is totally bankrupt.
Second I never said that I didn't love my "Israelite
brother or sister" I don't love the damn niggers, mexicans,
and all of the other races and the bastards that are being
produced from mix marriages. Now if that hurts someones
feeling then thats just too bad.
As for your accusation of me not being a Christian, I
guess that you don't know what a Christian is. So let me
give you a little Bible lesson; which you don't seem able to
understand. A Christian is one who is following Christ and
doing their very best to obey His commandments.
I will never love the damn jews that you and Richard are
so fond of so you can put that in your pipe and smoke it. I
hate them as David said with a perfect passion; they
murdered my Savior and King and for that I will never
forgive them unless Almighty God gives me direct order to do
so. They have murdered over 100 million of my White Brothers
and Sisters in the last 100 years alone but that doesn't
seem to bother you.
As far as the one seedline thing is concerned it is a
failed belief and has been refuted by much better men that I
am.
From: kkludd
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: Holy War: AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?
Well Willie, there you go again making wild accusations beyond the
scope of gentlemanly Christian conversation that someone who
disagrees with you is somehow a jew lover, that we "are so fond
of". And why would you think that God would ever give you direct
orders to forgive the jews? It's really hard to figure out how your
mind works.
The word satan, as you should well know, means a false accuser,
which you are actively engaged in. This is not Christian behaviour,
which you don't care to understand, let alone toning it down to a
level of civility.
Get one thing straight in this currrent diatribe of yours: there is
no such thing as 'one seedline' BECAUSE there is no such thing as
Two Seedline. Secondly, the word worship means giving someone or
something power to do great things as you do with your
supernaturally empowered spawn of Satan jews. As for myself and I'm
sure Richard and other Bible believing Christians who bow down and
worship at the feet of Jesus Christ, believe our Saviour's words
before Saint Willie when he said in Matthew 28:18 "All power is
given unto Me in heaven and in earth." How much room does that
leave you to worm your false doctrine into scripture? Who are these
men that can refute us? Wickstrom, Jones, Emahiser, Gayman??? If
you want to be a Christian, act like one and stop following the
traditions of man, superstitions, mythology and doctrines of
devils. A Christian is also repentant, which you forgot to
mention.
By the way, I don't have a pipe and I don't smoke.
Pastor Mark Downey
http://www.kinsmanredeemer.com
From: Richard Niemela
Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: Holy War: AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?
Willie..It is unfortunate that it has finally come to feeling sorry for you
rather then hoping to be an encouragement ‑ if you are so steeped in this
Talmudic issue that has captured you, then let me ask, just where do you
think it came from? It is an infection of sorts, whether you consider it an
ailment is something else...but it needs an antidote, and that is an
understanding as to how it became such a dominant feature of your life.
Did the "Devil" decide that you should follow it, or was it stimulated
rather, by one of the three lusts of the flesh that Eve succumbed to, as in
Genesis 3:6, and as found in Luke 4:1‑13 and 1 John 2;16..because they are
the three basic sins that even Jesus had to face in order to conclude His
mission..
We can see from them that one, the "lust of the eye," and two, the "lust of
the flesh," and three, the "pride of life" are all open for consideration,
but that third one, the pride of life has to do with power and control and a
dominant personality that refuses to listen..
It is the most difficult to overcome and when the tests come, as they do,
and shall, many fail that one especially when God tests us, as Job was
tested, as all Christians must submit, and it is that pride of life that
usually bars our path to humility and eventual restoration. Kneeling down is
hard to do.
Job knew exactly who had caused his problems.
It was not a "Satan" but God! A fact admitted by the Lord in Job 2.
"...although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause, (Job
2:3)
So, Willie, it is clear that Job's problems were "allowed" to happen by God,
and God even caused Job's troubles to test him.
Read Ch. 19, verses 6‑13 to determine just who gave Job all of his grief.
It starts, "Know now that God hath overthrown me..." and go through all the
other verses to see just who caused Job's troubles, and then, read verse 21
as a conclusion to those Job listed in verses 6‑13: "Have pity upon me, have
pity upon me, O ye friends; for the hand of God hath touched me."
So, did Job claim that some Satan had overthrown or vexed him? Or, was it,
just as Job said, that the Lord did it?
And then, we find that Grace was evident in the book of Job as well, as when
Job's friends became reconciled with him, "...and comforted him over all the
evil that the Lord had brought upon him...", (v.11)
So, here we can see that even they began to realize that there was no evil
spirit about that was degrading Job, but God Himself!
The question I have for you, is this, Will you believe Job? Or will you have
to be corrected by God..There is a lesson here that must be heeded...The
issue is to be able as Jesus did so easily, to overcome what is testing
you.....JRN
From: Richard Niemela
Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2002 2:46 PM
FOR ALL,, IT APPEARS THAT IT IS TIME TO ADDRESS THE SOCIAL AND OTHER ATTRIBUTES OF MANY OF THE SO‑CALLED
TWO SEEDLINE PROMOTERS...I HAVE DONE SOME FOOTWORK AND FOUND SOME PRETTY DISREPUTABLE TYPES OUT
THERE PROMOTING IT...HARDLY ONES WHO CAN CLAIM CHRISTIANITY AS A LIFE STYLE..
CRIMINALS, WIFE BEATERS, SOME CAUGHT WITH 16 YEAR OLD GIRLS, MOST DIVORCED AND MARRIED AN NUMBER OF
TIMES, MOST DID NOT FINISH HIGHSCHOOL, AND IN GENERAL, MANY CLAIMING TO BE PATRIOTS AND PROBABLY THE
FIRST TO TURN TAIL!
I HAVE SEEN TOO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF PERSON IN THE 73 YEARS OF MY LIFE AND ALMOST 30 IN THE
MILITARY...THERE WE COULD WEED THEM OUT, BUT HERE WE LET THEM SPEAK OUT AS IF THEY HAD SOMETHING OF
VALUE TO ADD...AND AS THE PAST FEW MONTHS SHOW, THE ONLY THING THEY WANT TO PROMOTE IS THE IDEA THE
EVE WAS INVOLVED WITH SOME ALIEN DEMON THAT DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE BOOK...SOME RELIGION.!
DOES ALL THAT SOUND LIKE CHRISTIAN DOCTRINE? HARDLY...AND AS FAR AS I'M CONCERNED, THE SIMON MAGUS
TREATMENT IS DUE FOR MOST OF THEM...SO BE IT....J.R.N.
From: Christian Party
Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 12:37 PM
Subject: [SonsofLiberty] AntiChrist COTC in Disarray?(From Danny Murphy)
Dear Richard,
We KNOW that you're capable of civil discourse, because you've demonstrated it so many times in the past, so it's
hard to even imagine what it is about the two seed line that sets you off so much, why you stoop to the tactics of jews
(character assassination, ad hominems, etc.) none of which advances your point.
I don't disagree with you that the Talmud also analyzes this passage in a similar manner to the "two seed liners", but
why can't you accept that this doesn't even begin to prove that jews originated the concept? The Talmud wasn't
written until centuries after most of the Old Testament was written, so they could easily have plagiarized this part, too.
To claim that dedicated White Christian Israelites who search so hard for the truth have a "typical Jewish "hidden
hand" behind " them entirely decimates your position.
I suppose we should thank you for demonstrating the point, except that you do have so many other excellent
contributions